I'm buying a new HVAC unit for my house - I do a little research on the net to figure out what a "reasonable" quote is. Many contractors are still stuck in "bubble land" as far as pricing goes, they're obviously padding the equipment cost to make their labor seem more reasonable.
While I'm doing the research, I find this little gem...
And the local, licensed, installer tells me he can't even come close on the price, but if I buy one of these "internet" units, the warranty will be "voided" by the manufacturer, no matter if it's installed properly or if it's even truly defective.
FWIW, this isn't an installer issue - my installer doesn't care if he installs my unit or his.
A simple reading of the warranty excludes coverage for improper installation, or installation by a homeowner.
Why would a manufacturer "void" warranties for internet sales except to prop up local pricing?
I've complained to the FTC and the atty's general in my state, the vendor's state, and the state where the manufacturer are located.
Just wondering if anyone else has run into this issue before, or had a warranty "voided"??.
FWIW, the warranty is silent about telephone purchases, so I still bought from the out-of-state dealer.
I'm amazed that a MFR would be so open to pushing the limits of anti-competitive behavior, especially considering the tremendous taxpayer-funded subsidy they're getting due to the 30% tax credit.
Message edited by: rzyzzy on 2009-11-03 11:11:10 CST
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woowoo2 said:Goodman has had a real problem with homeowners installing their own equipment then submitting warranty claims when something does not work right.
They are the bottom of the barrel in the HVAC world. I would consider American Standard equipment before goodman any day.
The warranty is already clear that a DIY install, or even a borked "pro" install isn't covered, and I don't have a problem with that.
The issue is, using the warranty as a tool to force the consumer to buy from the local distributor as opposed to the cheaper non-local guy.
Everybody in the trade claims to be a "capitalist" until one of their own breaks rank with pricing, then they want to play dirty and put the customer in the middle of their p!ssing match.
I think the warranty threat would work with most consumers, even if it is fairly easy for an astute FW'er to walk around the restrictions and beat them at their own game. I'm just amazed at the attitude and the willingness to skirt the law.
I truly can't wait for the chinese to start importing HVAC stuff - it might be junk, but at least it'll be cheap.
I am confused on why you think this company is breaking any laws or acting in any non-competitive manner. It seems to me that from what I have read here, the company has decided to only sell their products through approved vendors (installers). There are many reasons a company may do this. This will help them build a loyal vendor sales force. They can ensure that if the HVAC is installed by an approved reseller, then they will stand behind the warranty. They have more control over the price their products are sold at. Their resellers can be certain that they will not be undercut by other sales channels. Perhaps the company has never authorized anyone to sell its products on line. This would indicate that any of their products that are sold on line are grey market sales. I can understand why they would not want to provide a warranty on these unauthorized sales.
IMHO, this is not anti-competitive. You as a consumer are free to purchase your HVAC unit from a company that does sell it's products over the internet or using any other sales channel it chooses. That is the beauty of the free market. If you are not happy with this company, buy your HVAC from a different company that meets your needs.
I suspect that the FTC and attorneys general offices you complained to laughed at your complaint and threw it in the trash. It seems you are just not happy paying the price the company feels its products are worth. If this is the case again, you are free to find another vendor who will sell you an HVAC unit for a price you feel fair. If you find such a vendor, you may have to sacrifice some features that the higher priced units offer, like a warranty.
wd said:I am confused on why you think this company is breaking any laws or acting in any non-competitive manner. It seems to me that from what I have read here, the company has decided to only sell their products through approved vendors (installers). There are many reasons a company may do this. This will help them build a loyal vendor sales force. They can ensure that if the HVAC is installed by an approved reseller, then they will stand behind the warranty. They have more control over the price their products are sold at. Their resellers can be certain that they will not be undercut by other sales channels.
FWIW, the local distributor and the out-of-state distributor are both "authorized" dealers. You seem to agree that the "internet" sales policy is to prevent "undercutting" - that is my point exactly, and that is a pretty clear-cut case of anti-competitive behavior, imho.
Manufacturers don't get to "control" the pricing their products are sold at. They don't get to "retaliate" if a dealer wants to cut his own margins.
And they have no right to "prop up" a high priced local distributor at the expense of an out-of-town distributor.
What is your definition of anti-competitive behavior, if this isn't it? Fixing prices isn't legal.
Message edited by: rzyzzy on 2009-11-03 12:43:53 CST
this is done with tons of other products. IE the gray market. Car steros are big. Musical instruments, etc, etc.
most times however you are unable to get the product on the gray market, so the exclusive/licensed vendors dont compete with gray market goods.
What I always wondered is where alot of these gray market products come from. For example, most car stero's can be bought on the gray market. Where is the supply coming from? The answer of course is directly from the manufacture, however for the manufacture to be able to do this, the product must be significantly different then the one bought retail. IMHO, not having a manufactures warrenty makes it significantly.different.
Edit as for costs. Is it really that easy to compete the savings? I know you could estimate replacement costs. And see how much you save if you had to replace the unit vs warrenty coverage. But how do you account for the chance of serverally premature failure?
I haven't looked at HVAC costs, but one thing I noticed is that most hvac forums seem to guard pricing/costing very closely. As if they are scared of lossing $$$ if the started competeing with each other.
Anyone with a brain would get a few quotes and compare services so as to not get shafted. And the idiots that don't wouldn't go online to look anyways.
Message edited by: michal1980 on 2009-11-03 12:38:03 CST
What do you guys think of the ductless AC systems, a la Mr Slim and the like, for older houses without existing ductwork? They seem very popular in Asia.
Message edited by: xoneinax on 2009-11-03 12:49:04 CST
You actually found an installer that is willing to install equipment that you are providing? I'd be very leery of that installer. Probably not a professional in the business full-time. Marking up the equipment is how installers make their money. Like someone posted earlier, the manufacturer is just trying to ensure that it is installed properly to avoid having to pay warranty claims for improperly installed equipment.
If the professional you called can't match the price, call another company- tons of companies have access to sell Goodman brand equipment. No company is "authorized" to sell equipment, they just go to their individual supply houses that stock the different brands of equipment.
michal1980 said:this is done with tons of other products. IE the gray market. Car steros are big. Musical instruments, etc, etc.
most times however you are unable to get the product on the gray market, so the exclusive/licensed vendors dont compete with gray market goods.
What I always wondered is where alot of these gray market products come from. For example, most car stero's can be bought on the gray market. Where is the supply coming from? The answer of course is directly from the manufacture, however for the manufacture to be able to do this, the product must be significantly different then the one bought retail. IMHO, not having a manufactures warrenty makes it significantly.different.
Edit as for costs. Is it really that easy to compete the savings? I know you could estimate replacement costs. And see how much you save if you had to replace the unit vs warrenty coverage. But how do you account for the chance of serverally premature failure?
I haven't looked at HVAC costs, but one thing I noticed is that most hvac forums seem to guard pricing/costing very closely. As if they are scared of lossing $$$ if the started competeing with each other.
Anyone with a brain would get a few quotes and compare services so as to not get shafted. And the idiots that don't wouldn't go online to look anyways.
The problem with getting multiple quotes is that every dealer wants to push his own brand, so you'll get a bunch of apples-oranges comparisons.
for example, A top-shelf unit and the contractor re-using refrigerant lines, VS, bottom quality unit with new lines and a fancy-pants thermostat.
It's very difficult to pin these guys down, and they like it that way.
Add in some misinformation, "plausible" lies, incompetence and a touch of arrogance and you get what you have today.
And you are absolutely correct about the HVAC forums, anyone with the gall to mention pricing or doing it themselves gets the lecture about how you'll kill yourself, pollute the environment, and my personal favorite (paraphrasing), " you don't know nuttin' about running a business or how hard my job is, or how many expensive tools I had to buy, only to get undercut on labor by the employees I laid off you communist, cheapskate, fool - you cannot possibly understand how hard it is to only make $300-500 an hour with my trade-school education and my multiple-guess-open-book-tested EPA certification."
I am not sure what exactly you are looking for, but I had new Lennox furnace (86%) and 3 ton Lennox Central air system installed for $1600 a couple of years ago. We got 3-4 estimates and then, pitted them against each other.
It came with a 5 year warranty and 5 years of maintenance. Lennox may not be the top of the line, but the house did not have central air, just forced air heating and a 25 year old Bryant.
I would expect prices to be lower now, since not too many people are doing much to their houses.
This is perfect time for upgrades. Tons of contractors are looking for work. Local exterminating company, Buffalo Exterminating, is now offering "helping hands" service. Where they come out and help people who can't tell a screw driver from a hammer install things and such.
We had a local cabinet maker make all custom solid wood, dove tailed, full extention cabinets and 3D laminate counter with beveled edges (looks like stone) for under $5000!
blueiedgod said:I am not sure what exactly you are looking for, but I had new Lennox furnace (86%) and 3 ton Lennox Central air system installed for $1600 a couple of years ago. We got 3-4 estimates and then, pitted them against each other.
It came with a 5 year warranty and 5 years of maintenance. Lennox may not be the top of the line, but the house did not have central air, just forced air heating and a 25 year old Bryant.
I would expect prices to be lower now, since not too many people are doing much to their houses.
This is perfect time for upgrades. Tons of contractors are looking for work. Local exterminating company, Buffalo Exterminating, is now offering "helping hands" service. Where they come out and help people who can't tell a screw driver from a hammer install things and such.
We had a local cabinet maker make all custom solid wood, dove tailed, full extention cabinets and 3D laminate counter with beveled edges (looks like stone) for under $5000!
The tax credit actually pushed prices up in the HVAC industry - the distributors think they get it, the installers think they get it, and the customer gets very little if any benefit.
rzyzzy said:michal1980 said:this is done with tons of other products. IE the gray market. Car steros are big. Musical instruments, etc, etc.
most times however you are unable to get the product on the gray market, so the exclusive/licensed vendors dont compete with gray market goods.
What I always wondered is where alot of these gray market products come from. For example, most car stero's can be bought on the gray market. Where is the supply coming from? The answer of course is directly from the manufacture, however for the manufacture to be able to do this, the product must be significantly different then the one bought retail. IMHO, not having a manufactures warrenty makes it significantly.different.
Edit as for costs. Is it really that easy to compete the savings? I know you could estimate replacement costs. And see how much you save if you had to replace the unit vs warrenty coverage. But how do you account for the chance of serverally premature failure?
I haven't looked at HVAC costs, but one thing I noticed is that most hvac forums seem to guard pricing/costing very closely. As if they are scared of lossing $$$ if the started competeing with each other.
Anyone with a brain would get a few quotes and compare services so as to not get shafted. And the idiots that don't wouldn't go online to look anyways.
The problem with getting multiple quotes is that every dealer wants to push his own brand, so you'll get a bunch of apples-oranges comparisons.
for example, A top-shelf unit and the contractor re-using refrigerant lines, VS, bottom quality unit with new lines and a fancy-pants thermostat.
It's very difficult to pin these guys down, and they like it that way.
Add in some misinformation, "plausible" lies, incompetence and a touch of arrogance and you get what you have today.
And you are absolutely correct about the HVAC forums, anyone with the gall to mention pricing or doing it themselves gets the lecture about how you'll kill yourself, pollute the environment, and my personal favorite (paraphrasing), " you don't know nuttin' about running a business or how hard my job is, or how many expensive tools I had to buy, only to get undercut on labor by the employees I laid off you communist, cheapskate, fool - you cannot possibly understand how hard it is to only make $300-500 an hour with my trade-school education and my multiple-guess-open-book-tested EPA certification."
I think if you spend the time it wouldn't be that hard to pin them down. But that means being in control rather then giving the contractor all the say. I know some areas might be different. But in my area there are tons of HVAC people selling the same brand.
I'm thinking of replacing the HVAC in my house next year because of the energy credit, and that the unit in the house is ~25 years old.
Might annoy the wife, but i'll get a few different systems quoted, and maybe even the same brand form different dealers.
It's not as easy as it could be. But not that hard.
And yes, HVAC forums are excatly like you discribe it. I know hvac isn't the 'easiest' job in the world. But common now.
My favorite are the debates over operating temps/run time. And while its true that you want the system to operate at peak efficency the biggest HVAC blow harders seem to ignore the fact that mother nature doesn't have a constant temp outside. And while it might be overkill to design a system for the 1 day thats really out of the norm for the area. Having one that has enough overhead to cover the hot hot days, should not be too much to ask. Sure the average might be 85. But if its not of the norm to have 100+ days, why limit the system to only 85.
I am suprised that you can even buy one on your own. When my father-in-law was remodeling his house he wanted to replace the HVAC system. He knew what he was doing and wanted to install it himself. But he couldn't buy it directly so he had to get a contractor friend to let him use his business account at one of the contractor supply companies. FYI he is certified to work with refridgerants as he his a car mechanic. Even if you are worried about refridgerant environmental issues, why can a homeowner not install all of the duck work and refridgerant lines and then have a licensed contractor come out and charge the system after a quick inspection of your work? Watch out with some of these HVAC companies. They frequently get bought by other companies for their customer base (and they even keep the old phone number). A couple of people I know got burned when they called a company they used before (and trusted) and got poor quality service. They then realized the old company was now part of a different company.
johnnybs said:You actually found an installer that is willing to install equipment that you are providing? I'd be very leery of that installer. Probably not a professional in the business full-time. Marking up the equipment is how installers make their money. Like someone posted earlier, the manufacturer is just trying to ensure that it is installed properly to avoid having to pay warranty claims for improperly installed equipment.
+1
rzyzzy said: FWIW, the local distributor and the out-of-state distributor are both "authorized" dealers. You seem to agree that the "internet" sales policy is to prevent "undercutting" - that is my point exactly, and that is a pretty clear-cut case of anti-competitive behavior, imho.
1) I would confirm with Goodman that your "Internet dealer" is actually a registered dealer with them and is in good standing. I find it highly unlikely that an online company selling direct, clearing in violation of goodman's own policies, is also a legit dealer. More probably that this company is selling "gray" goods and not really an authorized dealer.
2) The Internet dealer has a cost advantage in several areas... from probably not having a real storefront, no technicians, no expectation from it's customers for warranty support, etc. How is this Internet dealer telling you a warranty repair would work? Call a local Goodman dealer? lol - good luck with that one! Or is he going to fly someone across the country to your house!
rzyzzy said: Manufacturers don't get to "control" the pricing their products are sold at. They don't get to "retaliate" if a dealer wants to cut his own margins.
Sure they do - happens all the time. Bose is the classic example. Don't you ever see a "save 10%" coupon for a store, then in the fine print it'll exclude a number of brands? Same thing. Bose is the most well known for doing this.
rzyzzy said: And they have no right to "prop up" a high priced local distributor at the expense of an out-of-town distributor.
I agree. However, they do have a right to make sure that their product is properly installed by a professional if you expect them to honor a warranty. As I mentioned above, how is your Internet (out of town) "dealer" going to install this at your house and be there for warranty repairs for the next 10 years? Short answer - they're not. You're either going to DIY when buying online... or hire a local handyman or HVAC tradesman who probably isn't a dealer, or Goodman dealer.
rzyzzy said: What is your definition of anti-competitive behavior, if this isn't it? Fixing prices isn't legal.
Speaking as someone not in the HVAC industry and as someone who recently when through the process of purchasing a new HVAC system, I can feel your pain. It's no secret that the HVAC trade is probably the most "protectionist" of all of the trades in existence. By that, I mean DIY is severely frowned upon... and that includes Internet "gray market" sales. Their argument is primarily one of safety & warranty... but, really, it's about protecting their trade and jobs.
As far as anti-competitive, I don't see the argument. If you want to buy a Goodman model X, you have thousands of authorized dealers you can call for a quote. That Internet dealer probably isn't even a legit dealer, and can offer the product at lower cost than most due to them selling "gray market" products with none of the infrastructure costs required to properly install the product and support you through the warranty.
add the cost of the warranty to level the playing field in your quotes and see where you come out. it's an apples to oranges as you describe. you get mfr approved installers and get the warranty, or buy online for cheaper, have your installer install it and get no warranty.
a lot of technical products, including single ply roofing, metal wall skin systems, etc. can only be installed by factory authorized installers. think of the warranty as a feature on the product. if you want it, you may have to pay extra for it.
Yes, I think the warranty should be factored into the price when you make your choice. The same thing goes for hard drives. If you go to Western Digital's website for warranty repair on a hard drive, you will be presented with a choice to "trade up" to a new hard drive at a reduced price if you agree to void the warranty on the existing drive. So companies do consider the warranty to be a liability and therefore attach a price to it.
ellory said:Western Digital does not determine that the warranty is only valid if you have an approved installer
Not really a valid comparison, IMO. Installing a HDD is simply turning off computer, plugging in two plugs, and done. Installing an HVAC system is a bit more.
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